For older discussions see:

• Talk:Feminism (archive)
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 2
• Talk:Feminism/Archive 3 Debates from 2004 and earlier, 19.03.2004

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Contents

1 Terminology 2 NPOV and Lack of Citation Issues 3 "Worldwide Statistics" NPOV - discussion renewed March, 2005 4 Effect on Religion: 5 "Epistemology" POV edits by 65.10.62.16 / 68.215.50.114 6 Recent edits 6.1 To User:69.225.138.56 7 Intro 8 Links section NPOV 9 Intro NPOV 10 women and consumer culture 11 Bourgeois feminism

Terminology

Hi, I wrote the stub-article Separatist feminism as I saw this was empty linked from this node. However I later on find the nodes Lesbian separatism and Lesbian feminism and got curious how these three relates to eachother. I haven't read much feminism books and stuff. If we could link these together somehow it is good, I feel however I don't have enough knowledge to do this. --TobiasBengtsson 13:16, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

NPOV and Lack of Citation Issues

I think that the article overall holds quite well to the neutral tone, so the warning at the top of the page is questionable... With the exception of the "Worldwide Statistics" section, which presents a rather one-sided view, the article gives a very good overview of feminism, plus refers to external sources that present different points of view. At the same time, no one seems to be interested to research and edit that particular questionable statistics section... Anyone up to challenge to resolve this issue? --ElfineM 03:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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An interesting contradiction - the "worldwide statistics" section of this article says this about rape:

"Women and girls are still raped, assaulted and abused, and society does not prevent or punish the violators. This violence is as often seen in Western and non-Western societies; and is tolerated..."

While the rape article says this:

"It is considered, by most societies, to be among the most severe crimes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

Feb 3rd, 2005 - 22:47 GMT

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The "worldwide statistics" section does not seem to even attempt to have a neutral point of view. And I don't see a single citation for any of the "statistics" there, which are presented as fact. feb 3rd, 2005

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though this article contains a section on criticisms, the rest of the article seems to contain a definite bias. (not surprising, since it's probably mostly self described feminists who have been editing the article) this is particuarlly true in the "worldwide statistics" section... these are stated as facts, and could be cited by others with whatever percieved legetimacy wikipedia has. i know this site has a strong non-bias policy, so it seems to me that statistics should be included both from mainstream contemporary feminists and from critics, like christina hoff sommers. more over, the "worldwide statistics" are not only biased, there is also no apparent source cited, and thus no way for anyone to trace those assertions back to see if they come from any person or group that they would consider creddible. i feel that until substantial revision is done on this entry, it should contain a warning at the top (of possible bias). Even if all these stats are true and can be verified, they should still be balanced with others, such as the number of women vs. men in prisons in various countries throughout the world, the average life expectencies of women versus men worldwide, the number of women vs. men attending colleges in the u.s., etc. Jan 31st, 2005 & updated feb 3rd.

"Worldwide Statistics" NPOV - discussion renewed March, 2005

If you must know, most of the worldwide statistics (apart from the rape bit which I didn't add) came from the Hutchinson Encyclopedia 2000 Millenium Edition ISBN 1859862888 on pages 1150, 1152-1153. I know because I added them ages ago. The encyclopedia doesn't cite its sources, so I dont know the original source, but I should imagine they were well researched.

Does that satisfy you?, whoever you are. I havn't followed this page very much so I wasn't aware that there was a problem. G-Man 21:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm now a registered user. To answer your question, that's a start, but I'm by no means fully satisfied. As Pearlg pointed out below, the validity of a lot of statistics cited by feminist has been called into question, and many feel that they stem from biased research. Another issue I have is with the title of that section "Worldwide Statistics." Even if there were general agreement that all of the statistics listed were true, I feel that it would still be a very biased selection. A better title would be something like "Statistics commonly cited by feminists." It could then be balanced with a section like "Statistics commonly cited by masculists and other critics of feminism." This list would include such stats as the number of men in prison compared with women, the number of women in college in the US compared with men, the average life expectancy of men compared to women (which many feel is socially influenced), the number of women who get drafted to fight in wars compared with men, the number of men who have been killed in combat in Iraq compared with men, the number of men murdered in various countries in a given year compared with men, the number of male versus female suicides, etc. That would be a lot more balenced and NPOV --Blackcats 22:16, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Whatever you do, a "X say-Y say" split is clumsy and should be phased out. A unified section analysing statistics is preferrable to having two sections discussing both sides. Dysprosia 00:25, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I assume that when you say X and Y you're using them as variables and not refering to the chromosomes ;-þ But seriously though, the only reason that those statistics are relevent to this article is because they are commonly cited by feminists. If they're not given under such a heading then it's simply Wikipedia arguing the case for feminism. IMO, the only statistics in this article that would be appropriate under a neutral heading like "worldwide statitstics" would be stats about the prevalence of feminist movements throughout the world. Afterall, this article is supposed to inform people about what feminism is, not why they should become a feminist. So yeah - either those stats need to be put under an appropriate heading, or they need to be moved to a separate article like "relative status of men and women througout the world." --Blackcats 19:15, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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I didn't raise the original complaint, but this isn't quite settled yet in my opinion. For example, read the references to stastitics like the ones you extract in Betty Dodson's website. Also, Christina Hoff Sommers has written extensively on why we should be dubious of those stats. I don't have the time for an indepth relearning of what they think--and I hope someone will step-forward to do that--but at the very least, the section should be prefaced with commentary along the lines of Sommers and Dodsons have criticized the statstitical and epistemological basis of the studies and research that produced those stats. -- Pearlg 11:39, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Effect on Religion:

Can somebody do something with the following mangled, run-on, pov sentence? Lesbian Latke 10 Mar 05

However, criticism of these efforts as unable to salvage hopelessly corrupt church structures and philosophies, continues; with respect to Mary especially, it has been argued that she, with her status as mother and virgin, and as traditionally the main role model for women, sets women up to aspire to an impossible ideal, and also thus has negative consequences on human sense of identity and sexuality.

"Epistemology" POV edits by 65.10.62.16 / 68.215.50.114

I think the same person is trying to add the following (see [1] and [2]):

It has been posited that while the nominal basis for feminist ideology is the need to ensure that rights, privilege, status and obligations be not determined along gender lines, the central motivating factor remains displacement of anger resulting from either the lack of being physically appealing to men or unresolved emotional issues with a woman and her father (see Electra Complex). While feminist epistemology is dynamically controversial, the need for the total assimilation of women into the power structure of modern society is both relevant and neccesary.

I reverted it both times--it's nonsense POV. I bring it up so that others can watch for it. Demi ^T/_C 06:42, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

Recent edits

The recent edits overcomplicated and obscured the definition of the word "feminism".

"overcomplicated and obscured" -- at least that is your posit, but also the point under dispute. I assert that the opening to which you reverted is misleading. Regardless of the complexity of the debate surrounding what constitutes "true" feminism, there is a dictionary definition of the word in the english language which has a very basic and simplistic meaning. This meaning is at the core of most--if not all--factions of feminism and as such the article should lead with it. (Your version fails to do this).

Then perhaps use the dictionary meaning only. What was the problem was the excessive need to overload the term within the first paragraph. Dysprosia

To say that the word "feminism" is a political movement, and also a school of literary analysis is inaccurate. Feminism firstly is not a word that describes a unified ideology but can take on many forms -- this is evident from the article. To say then that "feminism" is a political movement would be wrong, since if there are forms of feminism, then there are many ways of implementing that feminism in political activism.

The author explicitly wrote, "There is no unified Feminist political party." Perhaps this is not quite rightly phrased, but the edit you reverted most certainly did not assert or imply a unified ideology. Again, if we consult a dictionary we will see that he second definition of the word feminism is the political movement organized around "the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of men and women"

The edits added did assert a unified ideology, since saying that the term feminism describes a political movement/school, when in fact there are different subtypes which do not involve political activism or literary and historical analysis. Dysprosia

I disagree. Feminism does denote an overarching political movement. It happens that many people call themselves feminists and disagree on various things. But as you agree with the idea of leading with the dictionary definition, we can dispense with too much debate about the past version and attempt a new version.

The point is, which you seem to have missed, is that there is no one political movement. It is wholly probable (I am very sure that this is true) that there are several political movements oriented with advancing different strands of feminism and thus different points of view or aims. Thus, the term "feminism" to describe an "overarching" political movement would be inaccurate. The way the article currently stands by stating that feminism is "a" political movement should not stand, and I shall change it. Dysprosia

I only missed that point in your head. Let us try again. Feminism is both a political movement and a collection of several political movements. It is _a_ political movement in the sense of a broad objective, the acquisition of equal rights for women. It is also _several different_ political movements in the sense of there being some substantial disputes as to what constitutes feminism and how feminism should be pursued.

I note you seem to have missed the above point because I have had to repeat myself to little avail. Your proposal is however more accurate than the ones you have proposed previously, however the verbosity is not acceptable, nor your assertion that there is somehow One True Feminism and that it is this form of feminism has been disputed (which I am inferring, perhaps correctly or not, from your statement that "there being some substantial disputes as to what constitutes feminism and how feminism should be pursued"). Perhaps it would be sufficient to say that "feminist political activism is motivated principly by the acquisition of equal rights for women, with differing feminist ideology determining specifically other social and legal actions". Dysprosia

In any case, I am not even sure this usage is actually used at all.

Refer to my commentary above. This usage is given as meaning number two in the referenced dictionary.

Likewise for the "school of literary analysis" part as well. Mention of these aspects of feminism can be mentioned elsewhere in the article if they're not already clear already. Dysprosia 08:03, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the scripps registrar would be very intrigued to hear your assertion. If you like, I'll dig up a link to the course catalog for your benefit?

The "scripps registrar" would be wrong to assert that feminism is only a school of literary analysis.

No one ever asserted anything of the kind. The text you rejected read (after I undid your first revision) "Feminism also denotes a school of literary analysis." Where in that is the concept of "only"? For my own benefit, I'd like to understand your reasoning there.

You say "I think scripps registrar would be very intrigued to hear your assertion." From this I assume the point you are trying to make is that "scripps registrar" asserts contrary to my assertion, that feminism is not only a school of literary analysis. Thus I conclude that the point you are trying to make is that "scripps registrar" asserts that feminism is only a school of literary analysis. If you try to make a point, try to do so without others having to guess what you are trying to mean, as that only muddies the water. Dysprosia

Well perhaps you should avoid saying "likewise" in place of what you mean. I can only assume on the basis of what you wrote that likewise was in fact a reference to: "To say that the word "feminism" is a political movement, and also a school of literary analysis is inaccurate". Which is to say that _you_ asserted the feminism is not a school of literary analysis. Thus, I would rightly reply, "I think the scripps registrar would be very intrigued to hear your assertion." What is clear now is that you did not mean to say that feminism was not a school of literary analysis--and there began the confusion. Please try to take your own advice.

I meant precisely what I said. I meant "likewise for the 'school of literary analysis'" in the sense of that there is no one school of literary and historical analysis, as there is no one form of political activism. Thus the result of my above reply still follows. This line of discussion however is becoming a distraction. Dysprosia

On an indirectly related note, your version leads with: "primarily informed and motivated by the experience of women." That phrase is a bit of linquistic flab. Whatever that sentence means, it certainly could not be understood by a non-native speaker. Theories as abstract objects cannot be "informed", nor can they, in a strict grammatical sense, be motivated. This would be plausible: "The development [by people] of feminist theory has been motivated by the experiences of women"

To recap, I feel that the dictionary definition of feminism deserves to be the lead into the article. it captures the essential elements and roots which led to or define the major factions of feminism. Moreover, (though arguably) denoting as part of feminism any faction for which this is not true constitutes an Orwellian abuse of language--I refer you to the essay entitled ``Politics and the English Language.

You miss the point. I'm not saying that the other paragraphs which were inserted should not be part of the article, I am saying that the term should not be overloaded in the first paragraph. If the rest of the article does not make the points regarding political activism and literary analysis, the rest of the article should make these points, not the first paragraph. Dysprosia 09:10, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Now, you seem to have consented that the dictionary definition should lead--if you do not agree, then please explain specifically why.

Working from that basis, dictionary.com says this: "1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief." the OED says: " 1. The qualities of females. 2. Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes) wordnet says: "1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women" I propose to lead with:

The term feminism denotes, in the dictionary sense, 1) the advocacy of the rights of women based on the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of men and women; and 2) the movement organized around this belief [1] (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feminism) [2] (http://www.oed.com).

We need not lead with a paragraph sounding like verbatim copy of the dictionary. Observe that both your quotes do not mention an overarching political movement. I see little problem with the current lead sentence, and I shall currently try to fix the problems I do see with said sentence. Please sign your posts in future, or better still, get an account. Dysprosia 10:44, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Quite frankly, what are you talking about? "ovearching political movement <=> "the [political] movement oraganized around this belief" Notice that the dictionary invokes "the" while giving the explanation for what constitutes feminism as a political movement. I am also aware of the desperate factions of feminism. The preamble to the article can be made to reflect the duality.

You are inserting the word "political"... based on what? The term "movement" does not automatically imply political motivations. Dysprosia

Evidentially, we do need to lead the article in the fashion I proposed--and so cite it; precisely to emend the mistakes you are making. The article as it stands--beginning with the beginning--is too mealy-mouth to inform.

I am making no such mistakes; if I were, you have not mentioned what "mistakes" I am supposed to have made. Please sign your posts in future, or better still, get an account. Dysprosia 11:40, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The mistake you are making is assuming that Feminism is _only_ "a term to describe various social theories and political movements " It is also a term that denotes a specific theory in the dictionary sense and the movement in support of that theory. Refusing to include the dictionary definition constitutes bias. It's like saying all colors have an equal right to call themselves red. No sorry, they don't. They might have a strong right to call themselves red_without_red_but_with_blue_instead or red_with_green, but their claim on being called red is _less_ accepted. -- 69.225.138.56 21:26, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've never said or assumed that feminism is only such a thing, and neither does the article. The introductory sentence now introduces the correct fact that feminism is not a single ideology, but consists of ideologies whose "basis ... is that rights, privilege, status and obligations should not be determined by gender." Dysprosia 06:55, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry, but the introductory sentence I see does not say that. Moreover, I will repeat that unless the article ackowledges, at the beginning, that feminism, in the dictionary sense, means belief in and pursuit of equality between men and women, the article is wrong and misleading. It does not acknowledge that now. Further, it is imprecise to say feminism consists of sevearl ideologies. What is exact is that several ideologies lay claim to the term feminism. Please medidate on the meaning and subtly of those last two sentences before reacting. Thanks. -- 69.225.138.56

No. You are incorrect in saying that it is imprecise to say that feminism consists of several ideologies - what do you call the difference between socialist and Radical feminism, for example? You are incorrect in saying that "several ideologies lay claim to the term feminism" is a more accurate way of describing the multiple strands of feminism. Radical feminists, for example, do not say that they are the only ideology that represents "feminism", and neither do the other strands. What is correct is that all of these strands have a common basis, which is described in the article. This does however not mean that because of this, there is only one feminist ideology.

The article however does say that feminism means belief/pursuit of equality, in a more verbose manner, in the exact same sentence I woted before. Dysprosia 09:03, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think one thing is clear: we should avoid "dictionary definitions" because Wikipedia is not a dictionary (and dictionaries are widely available) and because dictionary definitions are developed according to criteria different from Wikipedia's -- even a common dictionary definition is likely to privilege one point of view, and thus violate our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:34, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, dictionary definitions are typically held to the historical standard--and as such they are fundamentally neutral w.r.t. present or future sentiments. The simple fact is that words have rather definite meanings. I have not asserted that the entry should consist solely or even primarily of the dictionary definition. Obviously, the term has come to connate much more than the diction definition; and many groups and ideologies use the term. However, the mere fact that it is even a dispute as to whether the dictionary definition belongs is per se evidence that it should be included.

Now, we can argue that feminism as it appears in the dictionary is a remnant of the patriarchal society; but that's an intolerable restriction. We have to agree to and accept a meaning for words in order to communicate. When I say, "I'm a feminist" and someone cringes that's a problem--because they are mostly likely cringing as a result of some more sweeping form of feminism than I support. I think the dictionary definition answers what feminist means in the fundamental sense. You take that and add various qualifiers, e.g., cultural feminism and can convey particular delineations.

For didactic reasons, I often explain to people that there is feminism (little f) in the dictionary sense; and Feminism (capital F) as elaborated by various ideologies and reform movements. The specifics of this explanation--the little f and the capital F--are not so widely accepted that I would suggest writing them into wikipedia, but it remains that feminism is a word with dual meaning. First, the accepted dictionary usage of the word, and second, the evolved meanings that have resulted from the dynamic and heterogenous nature of the movement. THe entry should convey these details of usage --69.225.138.56 21:26, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To

Would you kindly sign your statements, even if you do it without a username? IPs can also sign with -- ~~~~ , and it sure makes debates easier to read. I tried to assign your statements and I hope that I got that right. I do propose that nobody does answer any unsigned statemens any more, unless they are willing to sign them for the writer. You know, debates are sometimes refered to ages after they took place. -- AlexR 12:29, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I hear you. I apologize. I'm new here. -- 69.225.138.56 21:26, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Intro

User 69 writes, "Moreover, I will repeat that unless the article ackowledges, at the beginning, that feminism, in the dictionary sense, means belief in and pursuit of equality between men and women, the article is wrong and misleading." On the contrary, to begin the article this way is wrong and misleading. This is but one form/objective of feminism; to privilege it is to distort feminism. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it is privledged by historical usage of the word. I have cited several dictionaries that support what I wrote. Thus, I must insist that my sentence be recongized as factual and accurate. Your actions sir constitute vandalism. -- 69.228.130.255 20:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No they do not. Dictionaries are no substitute for real research. If people want to know what a dictionary says they can look it up in a dictionary. This is an encyclopedia and we need to do more research than cutting and pasting a dictionary definition. And if you do not mind, please do not call me "sir." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:07, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There has been no cutting and pasting of a dictionary definition. You are trying to weaken the word feminism by rejecting it's fundamental meaning. I have cited evidence for the most basic meaning of the word. You refuse to accept that evidence it seems, but your refusal does nothing to advance your position. I am waiting for you to offer a compromise, but your dislike of associating feminism with equality is clear. Your personal biases should not predominate. Of all possible basic implications of feminism, equality deserves prominence by preponderance as I have demonstrated by my references. -- 69.228.130.255 21:39, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Allow me to reference Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not: "Wikipedia articles are not: Dictionary definitions. Because Wikipedia is not a dictionary, please do not create an entry merely to define a term. Of course, an article can and should always begin with a good definition..." (emphasis added) -- 69.228.130.255 21:52, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Slrubenstein is exactly right when he says that "This is but one form/objective of feminism". The article is already quite clear on the basis of feminist ideologies. There is little need for change to the article introduction. I would also remind the anonymous user that accusations of vandalism are not ones to be bandied about lightly, and have the effect of serving primarily to weaken the reception of your arguments. Dysprosia 22:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The statement that "This is but one form/objective of feminism" is not, nor ever has been really, under dispute. Please stop pulling out this red-herring. Reread my extensive postings here and see that I do not dispute that point, and in fact argued on it's behalf. I will reiterate, though, that the word feminism _does_ have a generally accepted, literal, dictionary meaning as demonstrated by several references that I have previously provided. It is important in the interest of fairness and neutrality that the generally accepted literal meaning be given the prominence that it deserves. NPOV is not achieved by giving all opinions equal space, but by giving all opinions some space, ideally in proportion and promience to their predominance at-large. -- 69.228.130.255 22:55, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'd ask you to refrain from your patronizing attitude to this discussion - it is not helpful. I mention the statement about "being one form" for precisely the reason that you state that feminism has a dictionary meaning and that this dictionary meaning is somehow the unique definition and description of the goals of all feminist ideologies, which is not quite the case.

However, one leads an article with a correct and accurate introduction. Reread Slrubenstein's comment about dictionary definitions. A dictionary is a collection of word and meaning pairs, where the meanings are intended to be short and concise. We are encyclopedia; we are not beholden to any forms of restriction on the volume of information that we can add to an article.

Please get an account as your IP address is shifting. Dysprosia 23:07, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"feminism has a dictionary meaning " -- yes, I do say this.

"this dictionary meaning is somehow the unique definition and description of the goals of all feminist ideologies" -- I do not say this

"correct and accurate introduction" -- I agree with the opening timestamped 21:43, 20 Mar 2005[3]. Do you feel this opening is inaccurate or incorrect?

Thank you for your patronizing explanation of what a dictionary is and what an encyclopedia is. Neither of those statements is sufficient evidence that the dictionary understanding should not be the starting point of the article. Perhaps we can consider this issue with a didactic objective (for the reader). Assume the reader knows what the dictionary says and wants more information. The reader turns to the wikipedia. The wikipedia entry dovetails by first mentioning the simple conception of feminism as given by the dictionary and then proceeds to clarify and expand. This seems to me to be a very fair, just, and balanced approach. Do you agree at least in principle (details of wording aside)? -- 69.228.130.255 23:46, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Placing the dictionary meaning first implies that the meaning of feminism is the dictionary definition. Qualifying the dictionary definition to describe that feminism is not just the dictionary definition in order to provide an accurate description of feminism is clumsy.

Please get an account as your IP address is shifting. Dysprosia 01:43, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Links section NPOV

The sorting of the external links section seems to reflect a very strong pro-feminist POV. A case in point is the "Neutral" subsection. Readers would expect the articles linked to in that section to present a good balence between pro and anti-feminist views, but none of them seem at all neutral to me. For example, the first two sentences of the Why did feminism arise -- an essay article read: "It is not a question, that the frail sex is of no match to the virile sex when conflict arises. So, throughout centuries male dominate everything with respect to female." If that's neutral, then I'd sure hate to see biased! --Blackcats 22:01, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Readers would expect to be pointed to further information and supporting sources about feminism, some of which will be POV, some NPOV. Some will be discoursive (such as Dodson's critique of the Vagina Monologues) others will be factual in nature. These sources do not have to conform to wikipedia's high standards of neutrality. You can look at other articles on the wikipedia for and idea of what's acceptable. An An 12:17, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've looked through a good number of articles, and I've yet to find any article that has a subsection of their links titled "neutral" whose contents are not neutral at all. That's what the NPOV issue is (perhaps you misunderstood - it's not the links themselves that I was complaining about, but rather how they were labeled and sorted). But since it took about over a week for anyone to respond, I'm assuming nobody has too strong a feelings about this. So I'm gonna go ahead and merge the "neutral" and "feminist rescources" subsections into one section titled "supportive of feminism," which will contrast with the "critics" section, which I'll rename "critical of feminism." Hopefully this will work for everyone, and if not then we can discuss it here some more... --Blackcats 06:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect headings and incorrect categorisation are not NPOV issues. Change it for the better! An An 22:49, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Intro NPOV

"Feminism is a social theory and political movement primarily informed and motivated by the experience of women." was a much better opening sentence than what we've got now. While perhaps somewhat akwardly worded, it could accurately be applied to all the various stripes of feminism. It was also, I feel, sufficiently NPOV - a definition that both most feminists (of all the various persuasions), and most critics of feminism, would consider to be accurate.

The current opening sentence now describes feminism as "a belief in the principle that rights, privileges, status and obligations should not be determined by gender." But I would argue that this belief would be more accurately described as "egalitarian" than "feminist," and a good number of people who strongly believe in equality of the sexist do not call themselves "feminist." Many call themselves "masculists" or "gender egalitarians."

Also, many critics argue that a good number of radical feminists don't believe in equality of the sexes at all, but rather in female superiority. I think most feminists would concede that someone like Valerie Solnas (who's almost always considered to be a feminist) does not believe in equality of the sexes. Solanas is often called a "feminist extremist," but this designation would not make any sense if feminism were defined as a belief in equality of the sexes - if that were the case then Solanas would want extreme equality of the sexes. (And if feminism truely were nothing more than a belief in the equality of the sexes, then feminists would universally condemn Solanas as "anti-feminist.") The designation only makes sence if feminism is defined as advancing a female (group identity) based agenda.

Which brings me to my next point. From an objective standpoint, the very essence of feminism - from the word (fem as in female) to the symbol of the movement (the female venus symbol) - is clearly female based. So to imply otherwise in the opening sentence is certainly not NPOV (or accurate for that matter).

So I strongly feel that the intro sentence needs to be reverted to the earlier one or something similar to it. --Blackcats 07:14, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually the sentence did not say that feminism was "a belief..." it said that it orginated from that belief, which is a matter of historical fact. You omitted that word originated, though, in your quote and in so doing established a straw man situation. Everything you wrote would be right _if_ the sentence had not included the phrase originated from.

Further, stating that the feminist movement is "primarily informed... by the experience of women" is very much opinioned and biased. Can you demonstrate sufficient evidence for the word primarily? And irrespective of that point, it is extremely tilted toward gender/cultural/radical feminist modes of thought as well as the heavily disputed idea (within feminism) that there is a universal experience of women. --Pearlg 19:34, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware that it was worded that feminism "originated from a belief." But what's most relevant is what feminism is today, or at least what it has been in recent decades, not what it may have been two hundred years ago. The latter belongs in "history of feminism," not in the intro paragraph. My original critique wasn't a "straw man," but rather a simplification. I could have spelled out how that "originiated" construction was very weasely and was cleaverly designed to give the impression to a casual reader that "feminism is X" without specifically stating that directly - so as to try and avoid accountability. I could have also gone on to point out that even back in the nineteenth century there was a sizeable portion of the feminist movement which was anti-male, as discussed in The Bostonians [4]. And further eloborated that the classical feminist movement reached its peak during the Victorian Era, and as such was very much influenced by the pervailing belief in the moral superiority of women - a legacy which I would argue continues to this day. But I felt it better then to simply cut to the chase. It should suffice to say though that there's no concensus that it's a "historical fact" that the feminist movement originated from a belief in gender equity.

In response to the first part your second paragraph, I'm sure if I took the time (which I'll be happy to do if someone disputes the following assertions in this sentence), I could easily show that the vast majority of leaders in the feminist movement are women, the vast majority of members in feminist organizations are women, the vast majority of those who attend feminist rallies and marches are women, the vast majority of feminist authors are women, the vast majority of "women's studies" professors are women, the vast majority of "women's studies" majors and minors (and even students who only take one class for that matter - especially if you exclude those men who are desperate for dates ;) ) are women, etc. etc. I think that should be enough to be considered "primarily."

In response to the second part your second paragraph, I'm neither a feminist nor much of a believer in group identity, so I'll let them speak in their own defence. I think something like "based on" would sound better than the more akwared and postmodernist sounding "informed and motivated by" - see the masculism article, but that wasn't a detail I felt like adressing in my original sect-NPOV complaint. I would also agree that "experiences of women" is better than experience - as I said I think group idendity politics is pretty bogus - but as stated above - not a detail that I wanted to address at the time. To be really precise and accurate, I'd have said it should be something like "Feminism is a body of group-identity based social theory and political movement primarily based on the experiences of women who politically identify with other women." But then that may have spoiled one of those rare moments when anti-feminists and radical, cultural, postmodernist feminists united in harmony. And I wasn't about to let that happen :-þ

--Blackcats 07:45, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think most feminists dispute the notion that there is one "woman's" experience, so I pluralized the phrase. As to informed by the experiences of women -- this seems to apply to de Beauvoir, Freidan, Anzaldua, Trinh, Gilligan, and hooks (six very different feminist theorists/activists). The first sentence has to be as inclusive as possible. The earlier version -- "the principle that rights, privileges, status and obligations should not be determined by gender" is not inclusive, and thus not accurate, as there are many feminists who do not believe this. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that you are trying to tie feminism to the language of cultural and radical feminism. Doing so is not NPOV as it infuses the definition with ideas particular to a few sub-sects of feminism--ideas which are one of the central points of tension between the sects. -- Pearlg 22:11, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do not know what you are talking about. The language I am using is inclusive. It does not come specifically from radical feminism (I don't know what cultural feminism is). Who does it exclude? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:58, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

* There is a substantive argument that Individualist feminism is an evolution of ideas from the Enlightenment

* Writers such Mary Wollstonecraft critiqued society based on a natural law argument for parity. Though she wrote about women's plight in society, she did not embrace the idea that her ideas and commentary arose from a unique feminine insight. Nor was it derived from women's feelings and perceptions of their experiences. It was an equality as first-principle argument.

* Liberal feminism is primarily derived from ideas of classical liberalism not women's experiences.

* Equity feminism explicitly rejects the idea that their ideas derive from the experiences of perspective of women (as opposed to men).

* Feminist professor Susan Haack wrote: "I am not convinced that there are any distinctly female ways of knowing. All any human being has to go on, in figuring out how things are, is her or her sensory and introspective and the explanatory theorizing he or she devise to accomodate it"

* Feminist Christina Summers wrote an entire book arguing against framing feminism in the manner of your sentence.

These forms of feminism are definitely not "primarily" or even slightly informed or motivated by the experience of women (as women). The best I can salvage from your proposed sentence is a comment that most academic feminists are women. If that's what you mean to express than by all means we can write that in, though in a more direct fashion. --Pearlg 04:59, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK. To clarify, one’s ideas do not have to arise “from a unique feminine insight” (as in feminist epistemology) for one’s goals to be primarily motivated by the interests of women. To avoid ambiguity and confusion, I propose that we eliminate the word “informed by,” as it could readily have a postmodernist epistemological interpretation. We can easily replace it with “primarily based on and motivated by the experiences of women.”

Why not simply say outright that it is a "social theory and political movement motivated by a desire to advance women's position in society" That's an opening I can support. --Pearlg 08:30, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now to respond to Pearlg’s latest comments…

If something is done with the goal of benefiting women, then that is clearly motivated by women’s experiences, even if the argument for doing so appeals to classical liberalism or any other ideology.

Not so. motivated suggests reactionary. Given x happened, we will believe and do y. That need not be the case and is not the case overall.

Describing Susan Haack as a “feminist professor” is misleading. Ms. Haack is noteworthy not as a feminist, but as one of the world’s most respected epistemologists. She simply happens to be a woman who considers herself a feminist. She has also used that self-label to more effectively argue to feminists that they should not endorse postmodernism-based “feminist epistemology.” She is much like Alan Sokal, a self-identified leftist who is not noteworthy as a leftist but as a physicist and hoaxster. He uses his identity as a leftist to more effectively argue that other leftists should not endorse postmodernism (currently in vogue among leftists). At any rate, Ms. Haac has repeatedly said that her work is not “feminist epistemology,” but rather epistemological work by a philosopher who happens to be a feminist.

I agree completely. I unintentionally abridged too much, but I do not accept the argument that "feminsts" determine what feminism is. That's logically rather backward. Unless your intention is to make out feminism to be Feminism like the difference between democrat and Democrat--if so, I suggest you start capitalizing.

The point quite frankly was that if you assume Ms. Haack would not intentionally ignore internal contradictions, then her being a feminist and her arguing against feminist epistemology suggests that she believes feminism is a word separable from the language and discourse of feminist epistemology--which was my point.

Wendy McElroy considers I-feminism to be a specialty of individualism, which is motivated by a desire to help women. From her website: “Q: Why call yourself a 'feminist?' Why not just call yourself an individualist? A: Being a feminist is a form of specialization. In fighting for individual rights, some people focus upon injustice to women just as others focus upon injustice to gays or children.” [5]

A desire to help women, need not consider women's experiences (experience of women). I think the essence of this debate is that we're assigning different meanings to the phrase "experience of women"--I hear "women's unique perspective". The phrase is ambiguous and at least one of the meanings is wrong, therefore, I strongly desire a better phrase. I think you made this point earlier, and I refer you to my suggestion.

“Liberal feminism” appeals to the principles of liberalism, but its goals are motivated by a desire to advance the cause of women. For example, one of their main issues is alleviating what that perceive to be an unjust wage gap, in order to benefit women. But I’ve never seen “liberal feminists” make it their cause to alleviate the disproportionate incarceration of men, even though liberals are frequently point to the injustice of the disproportionate incarceration rates for racial minorities. Of course in those cases, a conservative-type argument could be made that the men and minorities deserve to be incarcerated more because they commit more crimes. But that’s beside the point. The point is that liberal feminists work on issues that affect women as women.

ditto, see above.

So I think that just leaves Christina Hoff Sommers and her “equity feminism.” This is somewhat of a unique case. I really liked a lot of the analysis in her book, but it frustrated me greatly that she did not challenge the basic assumption that “feminism means (or should mean) equality of the sexes” and that “everyone who believes in equality of the sexes is a feminist.” But besides her being very much considered to be a dissident feminist, it’s important to note that a central theme of Who Stole Feminism is that women will benefit the most when given equal rights along with equal responsibility. So she too, as a self-identified feminist, states her goal as benefiting women.

I reiterate then, let's make benefiting women be the direct statement perhaps even "motivated by a desire to benefit women".

In conclusion, I’m not too attached to any particular wording, but I do feel very strongly that the word “women” or “female/s” must be in the first sentence (and saying something like "men and women" doesn't count) in order for it to adequately and accurately introduce the topic. I also feel that any definition must pass the “extremist test,” such that the beliefs of those who are considered “feminist extremists” would logically follow by taking our definition to its extreme. Extremists generally represent a more pure form of an ideology, less tempered by other values (or sometimes even common sense), so they provide a good test for the basic definition. For example, all “anti-abortion” people are opposed to abortion (though some of the more moderates might make exceptions in cases of rape/incest). Anti-abortion extremists have gone so far as to blow-up clinics and kill doctors and nurses, but nobody doubts that they are opposed to abortion. The end for tonight – I’m off to bed. --Blackcats 07:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you make a good point -- Pearlg 08:30, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do not see how "informed by" is post-modernist. I still maintain that "advancing the position of women" excludes many feminists. Moreover, I still maintain that "informed by the experiences of women" is inclusive. Think carefully about Mary Wollstonecraft: what makes her a feminist, rather than a female theorist of the Enlightenment/promoter of Enlightenment values? Surely it is not simply because she is a woman. I appreciate the importance of "equity feminism" but this is "informed by the experiences of women" -- specifically, their experience of being in a subordinate position. "Experiences of women" is a very general statement -- you seem to think it means something specific. I agree that that was implied in the earlier version (experience of women) but it is not in the pluralized version. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but they are all "motivated by a desire to benefit women". Do you care to offer an example where a "feminist" expresses a desire to harm women?

It isn't that I think "experiences of women" means something specific; it is that it can be interpreted to mean something specific. As I said, at least one interpretation of that phrase is not inclusive. I'd like to strive for better than "being correct only if read through the proper glass". --Pearlg 20:43, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am not claiming that any branch of feminism wants to harm women -- but as you yourself pointed out, we must beware of essentializing. There are brnaches of feminism that call into question what "woman" is, or that seek to transform both men and women. Don't you agree that equity feminists are drawing on their experiences as (or perhaps more precisely, in the role of) women? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

women and consumer culture

I have removed the following from the article:

There are also a few who criticize feminism, ironically, in the spirit of Marxism or critical theory, as just an ideology of consumerism. They note that the female epistemology that "cultural (or difference) feminists" from radical feminists to gender feminists espouse (that women, unlike men, think non-hierarchically and contextually and prefer looking at the world as a decentralized relationship network rather than as a hierarchical organization) is just a reflection of the new consumerist world-order which has "flattened" the old classical capitalist world which is dominated by local, hierarchical, and centralized corporations. In Marxist terminology, the substructure of the mode of production (and consumption) determines the ideological superstructure such as feminism. They also note a certain feminist obsession with getting women to work and earn money, as if feminism were just a ploy to increase production and consumption of the capitalist system under the disguise of promoting equality.

I removed this because all the critiques of the connection between women and consumer culture that I know of come out of feminism, and are not aimed at feminism. Can someone verify this? Can someone provide a source for this? If so, of course we should return it to the article -- with the source. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:03, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bourgeois feminism

Hi, I found this term being used online. Wondered if this term was a clearly defined term, and if it could be added to the article. --69.214.227.51 06:59, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bourgeois Feminism is a term used to refer to feminist theory and practice which benefits the bourgeoisie - a priviledge class within society. Bourgeois Feminists might demand that women be represented on company boards, in government and in management positions without questioning the fundamentally oppressive nature of these roles or the usefulness of women occupying authority positions in structure. Bourgeois Feminism does little to advance the interests of working class women because it seeks only to have women included in the ranks of those who enforce the oppressive system of capitalist extraction rather than challenge the reasons why this system requires that certain people (women, workers, asians, migrants) be treated as the property of certain other people (ruling elite dudes). Thus for a class-feminist such as myself, the term "Bourgeois Feminist" might also be a term of derision which implies a shallowness of analysis and an easy corruptibility.

An An 23:40, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)